Two Improvisers Interview Each OtherWritten by Michelle Clark and Victoria Hogg – This article is from AIM Issue 2 (released November 2023). Saying "Yes, but..." versus "No"Vic: Ah, the classic bedrock improv tenet of “Yes, and…”. As facilitators, we all unpack the difference between saying “No”, “Yes, but…” and “Yes, and…”. I teach clearly that saying “Yes, but…” sounds pro-active but it’s a sneaky safety thing, a status-heavy way of protecting yourself. “Yes, but…” is more problematic than saying “No”. “No” is clear. Even if you’re scared, think the offer is dangerous or you have a better idea, “Yes, but...” says, “Yes, it sounds like I’ve listened to your idea but I’m going to explain why I’m out.” It’s a very unhelpful, defended position, even though it sounds the opposite. Michelle: I train people to become coaches and I always say, “How about replacing that ‘but’ with ‘and’ in your coaching – and in your life?” Because it makes such a difference to how that language is going to be received and held in a coaching conversation.
Failure vs MistakesVic: You have your comfort zone (cosy familiarity), your panic zone (unacceptably scary vulnerability) and between them lies the sweet spot of the stretch zone, where you challenge yourself appropriately as you learn new skills. I’ve changed my mind regarding “celebrating failure”. I tried hard to buy into the mantra of “we suck and we love to fail” when I started. But I now state that we don’t want to celebrate failure because, actually, nobody likes to fail; it doesn’t feel nice. Plus I kept thinking to myself, “I can’t seem to celebrate failure! What’s wrong with me?!” For me, now, it’s about being comfortable with failure. We are joyful scientists sifting data. Sure, we all occasionally make things more difficult for ourselves by mishandling offers, but we must aim to stay on a “Yes, and…” path that makes things fun and easy. Failure is a by-product of the work that we do; it’s not a goal so we can high-five each other over something that didn’t work out. Michelle: I don’t talk about failure much at all. I talk about mistakes. Mistakes are allowed. Furthermore, there are no mistakes when we weave them into the story. If we all agree that we have each other’s backs, anything that appears to be a mistake, we’ll pick it up and run with it. So in the space of psychological safety, we say, for example, in the leadership space or the workspace, we want to create a place where mistakes are okay. Not necessarily where failure is celebrated. But where mistakes are okay and they’re learning points. So I talk a lot more about mistakes than I do about failure.
DebriefingVic: Thiagi, as conveyed to me by William Hall, teaches clearly “It’s all in the debrief”. We must remind ourselves constantly that any exercise is solely for the purpose of setting up a debrief. We are here to unpack what just happened, in order to discuss it with the preordained challenge and desired outcome in mind. Michelle: I was in Prague this 2023 at the European Mentoring and Coaching Council and I delivered an improv workshop to coaches and facilitators new to improv. The entire premise I gave them is that the games will be the teachers. I’m just here to facilitate, and to convene a collaboration. We learn, as you’re saying, through a solid debrief. We put ourselves through the exercise – it’s experiential – and then we ask the question, “What did the game teach us toward what we’re hoping to achieve?”
Holding a space vs controlling itMichelle: I am a facilitator, co-collaborating on the learning of everybody who’s connected in that space. One isn’t running the meeting. When working with a team using Applied Improv, I am not the lead. It’s very self-organized, and that’s what I teach teams: Let’s self-organize so that everybody in the room is collaborating; everybody in the room is agreeing they’re part of it. Vic: “To hold space rather than control it” does two things: stops your ego from getting out of control and prevents your inner critic from doing the same. Otherwise, one can get in such a panic! “Am I doing the right thing?! It’s got to be perfect!”, etc. To have the pressure removed is wonderful: you’re simply there to create and convene provocations for a group of like-minded people who are going to collaboratively unpack what’s happening in real time. Michelle: Yes, one is co-creating this experiential space together and feeling free adding what was not within the rules. Like recently, we were playing a game, it was clear how the game went, and somebody decided to add a rule. We were all co-collaborating, I didn’t stop and say, “No, that’s not the rule of the game!” Instead, I went, “Wow, how exciting is this!” We’ve just created a new level between us. The group embraces that new level and that gives others permission to start taking risks and adding in something. Vic: I find there’s an interesting tension between what you’re expecting and what might happen. One must always be prepared to stop everything and have a conversation about what’s emerging. It’s easy with improv to create a super-fun session that ends on a positive collaboration high. Is this always the best area to lean into? Sometimes groups need some dismantling. You can’t open half a can of worms. Michelle: This applies to everything. At some point it’s wise to say, “Timeout! What do we think is happening here? What do we observe? What are we doing? What could we do better?” And then let’s resume. It’s important to have those pauses where a group can self-regulate or self-inquire. Vic: I spent my early career trying to make everyone happy. Often one’s scared of the group and trying not to upset the apple cart, and it’s easy to create joy as distraction. I’ve come back around to building joyful sessions while simultaneously dealing with group difficulties. I just co-designed a workshop with the brilliant Carrie Caudle called “Make Room to Spark Joy”, which embraced joy as a radical act in times of struggle. We explored collective effervescence, which was lovely.
The FutureMichelle: My recent workshop in Prague this 2023 was my first in-person workshop since Covid and it reminded me of how much I love to travel for in-person training. A kind of fuzzy horizon for me, therefore, is to get this work onto the road more. I’ve had the great good fortune of being in the AIN mentorship and I’m stoked that my mentor, who’s halfway to that point, is helping me bring my vision to bear. Vic: Wonderful! My latest direction is to create confidence courses that are asynchronous. They’ll be instructional design packages that offer a rigorous yet fresh experience, where people can learn positively and gain value, regardless of working hours or time zones. I’m also creating a teaching system with a new business partner that we call “I.M.P.R.O.V. to Improve”. Watch this space! Michelle: I’m excited and thrilled we’re connected, Vic, and I can’t wait to see what transpires. Vic: Absolutely! It’s such a joy to talk to you, Michelle. Thank you so much.
Article Note:Maarten Joosen transcribed and edited this article. This sections’ inspiration has the same source as The Playground of Possibilities. In memory of Kay Ross. Kay was a beloved member of the AIN community, the creator of The Playground of Possibilities (a card deck), and an invaluable copy editor and contributor in AIM Issue 1. Kay was a ray of kindness, ensuring new and experienced applied improvisers to feel at ease and home at any (virtual) occasion. She passed away in September 2023 in Hong Kong. She will be greatly missed. RIP.
About the Authors:Michelle ClarkeMichelle is a Global Leadership Coach and IAF Accredited Facilitator. Originally from South Africa, she is based in Santiago, Chile. After discovering Improv, she immediately fell in love with its powerful application to her coaching clients and to working teams. She has trained with Improv instructors Jason Delplanque, John Cremer, Joe Bill, and Gary Schwartz. She has studied musical Improv with Kaivalya Plays India and the Improv intensive hosted by the iO Theater in Chicago.
Victoria HoggVic is a UK-based Confident Communications Coach who champions participant success via Applied Improvisation and low-risk, high-reward safe space. She coaches on Zoom and in-person. Her work (including new system “I.M.P.R.O.V. to Improve”) is informed by an Applied Theatre Masters (Goldsmiths College) and 12 years of improv comedy training with a wide range of international trainers such as Keith Johnstone and those from Second City. (Read more from our magazine issues: click here to access our article database.) (Last Updated: Thursday, January 29th, 2026) |